Curse

Corwin_Andros · May 26, 2005, 07:41 PM // 19:41

I have an idea that although it probaly won't ever see the light of day in-game, it would alleviate part of the problem.

Make taking all those sigils to the trader a more attractive proposition. Give the posessors of sigils the option of selling them outright for a decent price, or trade them to the trader for an unidentified gold armor/weapon or 2.

It still wouldn't address the PvP folks grips about skills, but it could in the long run solve the rest of their issues as far as items is concerned

Robos Stavanis · May 26, 2005, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corwin_Andros

I have an idea that although it probaly won't ever see the light of day in-game, it would alleviate part of the problem.

Make taking all those sigils to the trader a more attractive proposition. Give the posessors of sigils the option of selling them outright for a decent price, or trade them to the trader for an unidentified gold armor/weapon or 2.

It still wouldn't address the PvP folks grips about skills, but it could in the long run solve the rest of their issues as far as items is concerned

Not a bad idea...perhaps also add the ability to offer certain elite skills the character does not yet have.

Ellestar · May 26, 2005, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarus

I doubt that will get them to change the PvP grind system. They'll probably just sell sigils at the trader for 100 gold or something to annoy the PvPers. And yes, gold is worthless. Buying runes is great and all but it's only a temporary solution to inevitably having to unlock the runes yourself. This of course means endless hours of farming and unlocking. The worst part is when you unlock a superior fast casting rune or something totally worthless. *sigh*

Sure it's pointless in respect of denying the guild halls. But an organized protest of PvP guilds like that maybe will give devs a clue that something is wrong with all that grind required to PvP...

Corwin_Andros · May 26, 2005, 08:45 PM // 20:45

The problem we all keep running into is that people the PvP primarily and those that PvE primarlily with little balance between the two have such completely different mindsets that it is hard to see things from the other side's point of view and EXTREMELY easy to take offense.

PvE people tend to see PvP folks as a bunch of elitist snobs and PvP seem to see PvE folks as a bunch of lazy incompetants. Mind you this is when we all have our hackles up and are feeling defensive or pissy about something.

THe thing of it is that we ALL want to enjoy the game without having to spend excessive amounts of time doing things we don't enjoy. I pointed this out before, but we all need to put our collective heads together and come up with workable ideas that will satisfy the majority of both sides without screwing up the delicate balance of the game to the point where it becomes two seperate games in one box.

Sausaletus Rex · May 26, 2005, 08:47 PM // 20:47

It's both disappointing and discouraging that, of all the indemic problems and issues in the game right now, the two the developers have seemingly decided to address this is the one that seems to merit such discussion. By my estimation, we've had two major balance tweaks since release and what have they concerned themselves with? Making farming more difficult so that people will have to spend yet more time and effort to find things - both elites and items. And to flood the sigil market so that PvP rewards are all but meaningless.

While I agree that the price of a sigil is a problem, it's largely a symptomatic problem of a larger issue. Namely, that the economy is broken. That's largely due to the fact that there just aren't enough - if any - gold sinks in the game. As has been said, the reason sigil prices are so high is not due to greed or corruption - at least, not on the part of the players involved - but to the fact that people are willing to pay that price. No one would charge 100+ plat for a sigil if there weren't people who could afford it. And, as has been said, 100 plat for a group of individuals is a relatively easy matter to acquire. It might take a day or a weekend of dedicated farming but it's certainly possible and, for a guild, that labor is divided amongst everyone in the group. It can be done, it has been done, and it is being done. Those who can't are either doing something wrong or aren't organized or dedicated enough to the cause. A Guild Hall is not a birthright, no more so than being able to start a character in Droknar's Forge. There are known ways of getting one and various shortcuts if you don't want to follow the "established" route but none of them are without effort or hardships. A Guild Hall is a reward, it's an accomplishment, a goal, and to remain so it needs to be something that takes effort to have.

Of course, just because people can make the sort of money required doesn't mean it's not a problem. Every day, every second, the game's servers are up there's more and more money, more wealth, entering the system. What's out there to draw it off? A plat enterance fee on WaW content? If people can farm out 100P, then 1P is next to nothing. A 15P armor set? Sure, if you actually bother to get one as they're no better than the stuff in Droknar's and even then that's about 75P for a full set and, again, if we take it for granted that 100P is a reachable goal then 75 isn't all that bad, either. I suppose you could get multiple sets for each and every character but then you run into the issue of storage space. I'd love to own a set of every armor in the game but I don't know where I'd put them and still be able to pick up drops. Past a certain point, gold does nothing but sit in your inventory and pile up. And not just in yours but in everyone else's playing too. Inflation occurs, more and more gold is required for even basic goods. And it becomes useless as a medium of exchange because there's nothing to spend it on. Such bloat is inevitable in a game like Guild Wars but there's a lack of anything to combat it that's startling.

But not perhaps, as startling as the seeming obliviousness or indifference to the real problem. It's the economy stupid. Sigils are just the tip of the iceberg. *Everything* you can trade is going to raise in price so it's fortunate that there's so little to trade. If there were no material or dye traders then we'd certainly see skyrocketing prices there too. I'm far from the wealthiest but I'd drop 20~50k on a Superior rune I needed or a max damage weapon with nice mods in a heartbeat, depending. But what else am I going to spend it on? Those conveiniant traders are actually harmful to the economy because they put a cap on prices. No one's going to trade for much beyond what the merchants offer so dye prices, for example, are fixed. Except, of course, for the dyes not available at the traders the black and silver. As we gain more wealth they cost more serving to distribute wealth and lubricate the economy. The more people have, the more they'll spend, so Black dye will keep raising in price. There's no price-fixing there, there's no, in so many words, governemental subsidy, keeping prices stable so the only thing that works on the price of Black dye is market forces. But there needs to be, essentially, a tax on playing that serves to funnel off excess gold in the system to keep the wealthy from getting *too* wealthy and driving costs ever upwards until the currency is so devalued it doesn't matter and you'd need millions of gold to get a black dye. Markets need to open, lacking those price-controlling brakes, so that wealthier players distribute their wealth more but at the same time there needs to be goldsinks to draw off wealth in general. Those who have little need to be able to get wealth from those who do and the wealthy need a reason to give wealth to the needy, trading needs to be facilitated and eased - letting the free market govern itself - either through established trading zones or an auction house or player vending system. And we all need some massive gold sinks like guild hall upgrades or customization or being able to expand vault storage or pay for more character slots.

But what do we get? 2 more sigils entering the market. Oh, and farming's been made more difficult so we all have to work harder to get wealth in the first place. But, hey, this is the same design philosophy that gave us SoC-only elites to replace the gem system that would have let players trade and establish a skill economy. Really, what can you expect?

Honestly, I'm surprised they didn't just give the sigil trader an infinite supply of sigils, as they have with merchants and identification kits, and set the price at a flat 50~100P. That would solve the "problem", wouldn't it? Of course, it also further destroys the economy by removing yet another thing to trade and leaving more wealth concentrated in fewer hands.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

"hypocritical?" Could you explain how that word applies? I'm scratching my head here, being a word person and not seeing its application at all to the preceding commentary.

Spooky's probably long and, perhaps, wisely fled this discussion so allow me to respond.

It's hypocritical because it's presented as a solution. When, in reality it's nothing more than posting a police officer at every intersection where lack of maintainance funds has caused yet another traffic light to fail. Rather than being helpful and addressing the actual problem, it's a bandaid and one that going to wind up being more costly and troublesome than fixing what's actually wrong.

It's the old debate of direction versus freedom. There is, now, but one source of sigils in the game. That means that anyone wanting a sigil has to deal with how they're acquired in some fashion. Rather than having sigils as something that incourages, rewards, and expands upon a player's, a guild's, gameplay experience and enjoyment, it's an effective impediment to their fullfilment because of how everyone is funneled into one direction and one direction only. There's no choice, there's no option, there's no freedom there's simply "this is the way it is - win your sigil or pay through the nose". In a game where the goal is supposedly to provide options rather than power, to foster diversity and freedom rather than a more determanistic linear progression from start to end, sigils dropping in the hall runs counter to those design goals. The rich get richer, those who have time to spend gain something that those who don't can't, and everything else that comes along with the equation of time=power.

There must be some guidance, some direction, so that we're not all thrown to the wolves where only the fittest will survive but the flaw here is not that sigils are rare or that Guild Halls are something to be worked towards and earned through gameplay or that there's a tweak needed in just how much effort is required for it to be a reward rather than a feature, it's that people are forced, railroaded, into the pre-approved path. It's not just that the economy is broken or that there's a slight problem with sigil availabilty compared to the guilds clamoring for one, it's that the game has been poorly designed and is need of a structural overhaul to fix the root causes that lead to problems like sigil prices being high.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwoody

I am also hoping they do something about elite skills, but I don't understand "gold is useless." I would think that with all the gold you have you could easily buy all the runes you want, you don't need to unlock them.

What the most dedicated and "hardcore" of PvPers want is not simply more runes but the flexibility afforded by those runes. To do so through purchasing those runes - to say nothing of the various upgrades and high-end weapons and armor - is not a good method of achieving that flexibility. They would need, I believe, about 28 runes. One each for every profession's attribute at each of the 3 levels of Minor, Major, and Superior. All professions have at least 4 attributes although some like Warrior and Elementalist have 5, and the Warrior has an additional rune in the Absorbtion but that, like the Vigor you only need a Superior for because they're just strictly better yet rarer versions of the lesser runes. Now, obviously, you don't need all the runes as some of them will be useless to you - I can't see using Superior Healing or something along those lines - but the point is not to have what you think you might need but to have everything you might possibly need so you dn't have to hunt it down once you do - you never know, maybe some day someone out there will come up with a way of using that rune to good effect, best to have it on hand for that day than to have to scramble for it when it comes. All of that takes up a lot of precious inventory space, far more than you have available at your vault storage so such a player would be constantly shuffling their runes around from character to character eating up more time beyond simply arranging for the purchase of each rune. Then, too, they'll have to constantly replenish their supply because runes must be added to armor and to get them back you'll need to salvage them out and that's a risky process. It might be a 90% success rate or something along those lines but eventually you'll lose a rune and need to buy it all over again. That means you'll need to have more money on hand or more farming done to get that money in order to replenish your stock.

Buying runes is a stopgap measure because what they really want and need is to unlock those runes so they can use them again at a moment's notice without having to "grind" away at maintaining their character. That's why the going rate of currency is unidentified rare armor pieces (or runes - you can salvage without identifying and those rare armors are going to pop out an unidentified rune. Why people doing do more of that so they can advertise un-IDed Necro or Ele or Warrior or Vigor runes is beyond me).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreamsmith

Sorry for the long rant, I'm just tired and pissed seeing people post who clearly don't even understand the problem. The problem isn't that we have to farm gold to buy a sigil, the problem is we can never buy a sigil, no matter how much we farm! The more we farm, the FURTHER we get from meeting the price!

of course. Demand outstrips supply. And, as such, more and more of your productivity - represented in game as your "farming" output - goes towards the good you wish to acquire. Those who are most productive, those who have the time to devote to sitting in town looking for "WTS Sigil!" or to bash more and more monsters into the ground to gain every more wealth, will be those who are best able to meet the demands of those who are doing the supplying. The proble, as Charles deftly illustrated, is that there are far fewer sigils than peopel who want them. They drop at a rate of, perhaps, 15 per hour now no matter how many people are playing the game. The more people play, the more people there are that want the sigils, the greater the demand while the supply remains fixed. Ten teams storming the Tombs or ten million, there are only fifteen sigils per hour up for grabs. This creates a seller's market, where the only check on the price of a good is the amount of money in the other person's pocket. Why is it 100P? Because that's the limit on how much gold a character can hold at any given time. Take away that limit and it'd shoot even further up and, in fact, that's why people are turning to asking for rares and items rather than gold - they're worth more than 100P. There's no need for a monopoly or a shadowy conspiracy of people out to keep the PvErs down or anything of the sort. Market forces drive the price of sigils ever higher because of people doing exactly what you're doing, Dreamsmith: working harder and harder to earn more and more. What's limiting the price of sigils is not their number or availability. It's the amount of wealth owned by the average person who wants a sigil and wants to pay for the privaledge of not having to win one.

Simple economics theory is enough to explain the current predicament. And, as with many other inovations and changes to the game that have been made over the long months that I've been following it, something like the current situation was predictible long in advance of the present day. People were complaining and warning about the sigil system when it was introduced just as they warned about the SoC or elite skills or SoC-only elites or mission design or item dependancy and numerous other issues that remain to this very day. A fixed supply with burgeoning demand is a recipe for inflation. And burgeoning demand with a time-sink based infinite supply of wealth is a recipe for an economy circling the drain.

In so many words, the only way for you to get a sigil is to work harder, not smarter - you need more people earning more gold to get above the average wealth level or "poverty line" - or you need to wait until demand has leveled out and the supply of sigils begins to outpace the market - and given the current state of things that's probably going to take weeks if not months. Either way, you need to invest more time in order to get your reward.

Virtuoso · May 26, 2005, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The sigil problem has nothing to do with PvP rewards, or top guilds, or monopolies, or PvP vs PvE, or any of the other stupid little reasons where people blame each other for this mess. Sigils are getting sold to the high bidders, and those high bidders have more than you do. If you want to throw blame around, direct it at arena.net for creating a broken economy.

Peace,
-CxE

DING DING DING! We have a winner.

And for the record, I'd just like to say that some of you that insist that PvE is harder than PvP disgust me. If you can't figure out why PvP is harder than PvE, and that it can be proven logically, then you're an idiot. Just like some of the people on these boards that sit in the Gladiator's Arena forum spouting off all sorts of advice while admitting they've never PvPed in GW. Bah, you want a game that focuses on PvE? Go play the 5 billion games that are made for carebears like yourself.

-Virt

[Edit: Grammar > Me]

Lim-Dul · May 26, 2005, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Who said that PvE was harder than PvP?

The point is: in GW you have to do PvP to do PvP (so you have to get a Sigil BEFORE doing some real PvP) - that's strange because new guilds will find it hard to get any training before the HoH which is constantly occupied by pr0s.

Nevertheless the price of Sigils is dropping as expected. I've seen some 70K and 80K offers today - FINAL offers that is.

GW economy isn't screwed up by the way. You all see it from the perspective of a high-levler - I just recently started a new W/Ele char and now I see again how hard it is to get gold.

You are seeing those astronomical prices because the fast travel feature of GW leads to newbie-abusing. High levlers AREN'T separated from the n00bs by like a 100 hour walk, but 2 mouse-clicks. And then they are selling their crap for 10 times the price it's worth because it seems appealing to the fools that buy it. I mean - when ANYBODY who ever paid for a Dragon Sword reaches the Desert and finds out how common these drops are, then he will surly see how stupid he was - and more often than not he will happily start selling the swords to newbies himself. I'm sick of those Dragon-Sword-Freaks! Every friggin warrior in the game uses one! This isn't ORIGINAL and UNIQUE anymore - what's more original is my Icy Brute Sword of Fortitude. -.-

(P.S. Sorry for addressing the general issue of GW economy. Nevertheless people speaking of a inflation kind of live in a different reality - I for my part pay the same amount of gold for EVERYTHING I need that I used to - besides Sigils of course.)

Sadye X · May 26, 2005, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaynsaw

If you can survive round after round in the Hall of Heroes without getting knocked out, you deserve the sigils.

And I mean no disrespect, Sadye, but PvE is a cake walk compared to PvP. I personally fall asleep during Fissure or UW runs. After a while, the patterns of one main tank, spam healing, not letting the Aatxes beat the crap out of vulnerable casters, and doing the same quests over and over becomes extremely monotonous. I really challenge anyone to argue that it's just as easy to farm in the Underworld as it is to win the Hall of Heroes. Keep in mind, many people can do UW at once, not to mention you don't have to go head-to-head with a dozen other teams who are all looking to remove you from the Hall of Heroes by any means they possess at their disposal.

I mean, do you really think that superior runes just drop like mad in the HoH? Yeah, I got a rare unidentified armor yesterday... it turned out to be a minor swordsmanship.

The best way to find runes and rares is still PvE farming. If sigils were made available through some kind of "quest" or PvE contrivance, they would be worth nothing, period.

First I do want to just say I'm not in total disagreement with you by any means here, but rather simply hoping to illustrate a different perspective is all.

All I can truely comment on is what I know from direct experience, and that experience thus far has proven to me that, although PvE is indeed loads easier than PvP, the point I was trying to make is that after having played GW on a regular basis I simply have yet to see a single gold armor drop no matter how many times through an area on capture runs, no matter how many mission runs to help lower level guildies progress. And when I say none, I mean none in terms of not *reserved for Sadye X* or for a single other person on the teams I've been with. We have someone in the guild who's been through ascension with 4 seperate characters so far, unlocking most elites for most classes as well, and even just last night he'd said he's never seen a superior rune thus far either.

Earlier in the thread I'd mentioned that there's more than one route to getting your guild into the HoH to compete there. Many guilds ( mine included ), although they have the end goal of gvg combat, choose to move through the pve content with the mindset of simply enjoying the game, rather than it being a roadblock standing in the way of our end goal that must be completed asap. Many of our members have somewhat demanding lives here in the real world and simply don't have the time nor will to play a game for hours and hours each day in grind-mode. Who wants to come home from work and basically log into a game and go to work all over agian ?

Then take a look at not only the top guilds on the ladder, but also how many of those same guilds hold the HoH for long periods. Hands down, these guilds have a very *pass go and move direct to pvp* attitude, considering pve boring and tedious. Why people buy a game modeled after rpg's and then complain that they have to spend time in and rp setting is beyond me, but that's besides the point. (Flashback 25 years ~ your rp group decides that the adventures they're going on are boring, and they're sick of being level 18, so your DM devises a way for you to *farm* for a few weekends, skipping the actual adventure aspects of playing an rp, and having 8 hour sessions of your party vs. an unending horde of lvl 10 rust monsters !! )

As I'd satated before, any guild who wishes to compete in gvg, given the current atmosphere of the HoH being held by the top guilds, must first already defeat the very top ranked to even have the chance to compete against the very bottom. Aka ~ if you want to even get on the ladder at 1,000, you must first beat a team in the top 50.

So if you consider pve tedious and boring ... how tedious and boring do you consider it for a smaller guild with a more relaxed schedule to play the same map hundreds of times in tombs, only to be beaten by the top ranked guilds once they step foot into the HOH?

I've seen many posts by players who's guild has won the HoH in these threads, but I do wonder if any of those allow their members to play the game in a casual manner, without spending the equivelant time of a full time job working on pvp skills every week? You see , gvg is considered the *end game* for Guild Wars. Just like nearly every single other online rpg I've ever played, the end game is held / blocked by the powergamers who spend more time than the average player. Look at EQ ~ there's a reason why later expansions were catered to the powergamers ... on most servers the high end raid zones were literally blocked by as few as 3 uberguilds who'd keep any other guild from experiencing that content simply by setting up a rotation given known spawn times etc. They had no real reason to do so other than that they could. You were left with two choices ... you could either kiss the $30 you paid for an expansion goodbye since you couldnt experience the content, or you could join the uberguilds. But then that meant ( at least on my server ) a commitment of raiding 5 days a week, for 8+ hour periods.

Currently GW is headed the same way unfortunately ... the idea of upping sigil drops and allowing some type of vendor stock is , in the end , meant to be a means of allowing the majority of the people who spend their money to play the game, access to the end game content without it being all in the hands of the powergamers who gets there.

Sadye X · May 26, 2005, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Virtuoso

DING DING DING! We have a winner.

And for the record, I'd just like to say that some of you that insist that PvE is harder than PvP disgust me. If you can't figure out why PvP is harder than PvE, and that it can be proven logically, then you're an idiot. Just like some of the people on these boards that sit in the Gladiator's Arena forum spouting off all sorts of advice while admitting they've never PvPed in GW. Bah, you want a game that focuses on PvE? Go play the 5 billion games that are made for carebears like yourself.

-Virt

[Edit: Grammar > Me]

Disclaimer : I do of course consider pvp to be much, much harder than pve, and would never claim otherwise.

What I *will* state however is this ~

Some players / guilds have the singular focus of pvp, while others play GW in a bit more relaxed of a manner. The thing here is, if you put a team that's been 100% focused on pvp from day 1 against a team that's been taking time to explore, meet people, do things involving the rp side of things in general, hands down the pvp team will no doubt win every time. Why ? As you know, though loads easier you also end up using very very different builds for pve than what's required of your class in pvp. ( the example being my nec which thrives on death magic in pve would be torn apart in pvp if I go into the tombs with the same build )

And as a last note, perhaps people might be more willing to take the things you post a bit more seriously if you weren't so ready to insult them every chance you get ? Just a thought

Lim-Dul · May 27, 2005, 12:27 AM // 00:27

I see no problem in build-switching - that's what refund points are for. I regularly change the build on my main char (which does both PvE AND PvP) - I even have two separate armor sets! ^^

That's why I think that we shouldn't divide GW into pure PvE AND pure PvP, because it's both - and people who fail to see that are simply stupid. That's also the reason for my laughing at those lazy PvP-only guilds that don't bother to move their arses out of the HoH to unlock everything!

You know what? Though I have access to the sum of money needed to buy a Sigil I'll win it myself and show those *proud* pple doing PvP 24/7 that you CAN win without being fanatic about it. I have a great deal of experience in GW and so do many of my friends - I'm sure we'll be able to hold the HoH at least once. :-P

Chaynsaw · May 27, 2005, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Sadye, I'm not in a guild that does PvP a lot. In fact, I don't PvP with my guild. I know PLENTY of pickup teams that have won the Hall of Heroes, and I assure you that the top guilds are NOT guaranteed to hold the Hall. I went through the agony of trying to get on a good team and work my build into their strategy, while spending lots of time hitting the Hall, hell, even remaking my character just so I could get more opportunities to PvP. It really miffs me that some of you are fixated on making excuses for yourselves not to win the Hall and then deeming yourselves worthy of a reward that many of us straight-up earned.

And as courteously as I can put this, your Chicken-Little rant about how the sky is falling in GW is nonsense. Since so much of the game is instanced, there is no such thing as spawn-camping, to name one of the MANY differences between whatever Everquest disaster you were citing as evidence of your argument.

I don't play GvG, so I won't comment on that, except that I don't consider it the end-game of Guild Wars. Those of you who think that PvPers suffer the disadvantage of less skills are wrong. We cap the same skills, go through the same missions, and we do all the stuff that PvE'rs do. Do we consider it an obstacle? Perhaps, but only because we've finished it all before. How many times can you do Borlis Pass or Frost Gate or the Ascension missions before it gets boring?

And the myth that you need to spend a full-time job's worth of playing on here to brawl down the top guilds: The attitude I witness here is indicative enough of why those who cop those attitudes don't win the HoH. They get psyched out easily by famous clan tags, or they're not willing to put forth the effort required, or they just don't want to win. Well, I want to win. I try harder, I learn more, and I play to win. Everyone is saying... lower the barriers, make sigils cheaper...

Why don't we make them free? Or just give everyone a sigil, a cape, and 100 fame to start with? Are those of you who complain about sigil shortage even willing to do the sort of things necessary to win the Hall? You're blocking yourselves but not opening yourself to opportunities to improve your play, and that's why you're here complaining about sigils, and not out in the Hall earning them.

sama · May 27, 2005, 01:50 AM // 01:50

econ 101: artificial floors or ceiling is the worst thing that can happen to an economy.

so any sort of dev implemented cap on sigil price actually hurts the economy more than help. but it seems that the sigil traders has unlimited sigils. so the pve crowd no longer has to deal with the pvp at all!

in any case, plz stop spamming me in game for sigils. i only trade sigils for unid'ed armor.

ManadartheHealer · May 27, 2005, 03:21 AM // 03:21

Wow, I just checked sigil trader, and she had one! For the low low price of 84k

Amazing, there are actually sigils

Lim-Dul · May 27, 2005, 07:08 AM // 07:08

Quote:

Since so much of the game is instanced, there is no such thing as spawn-camping, to name one of the MANY differences between whatever Everquest disaster you were citing as evidence of your argument.

That's true - there is no spawn-camping but greed and laziness will always find their ways - in GW we have a phenomenon of HoH-camping, which in the end amounts to the same thing.

Brett Kuntz · May 27, 2005, 07:09 AM // 07:09

How can you camp HoH?

Sarus · May 27, 2005, 07:30 AM // 07:30

Quote:

That's true - there is no spawn-camping but greed and laziness will always find their ways - in GW we have a phenomenon of HoH-camping, which in the end amounts to the same thing.

So are you saying guilds that hold the hall should voluntarily leave after winning a round to let other people have a chance too?

Lim-Dul · May 27, 2005, 07:46 AM // 07:46

No - I'm not complaining about the guilds themselves, but about the system. Of course the good guilds should get rewards for their victories, but at the same time it blocks off other guilds - you see - I wouldn't even stress it, if it weren't for the fact, that in the rest of GW situations where the action of ONE player or party affects ANOTHER player or party were carefully avoided (instanced world etc.).
Why aren't there e.g. several parallel HoHs? Or sth. like a handicap system? Or a division between the Top10 of the ladder and the rest? I mean - in every ranking that makes sense (look at ESL, ClanBase) you aren't REWARDED for beating up much less skilled players - well, in GW you are, cause you get Sigils, now even un-IDed items - in ClanBase or the ESL you would be punished for playing against people much lower in the ranking in the first place (for losing points even after a perfect victory - in the HoH it doesn't matter WHO you beat - you always get your reward). I'm still speaking of the HoH and not of the GvG system - cause I think that the best GvG guilds are also the ones that win the HoH regularly and they should fight against worthy opponents, not against ANYBODY - or an even better idea - separate HoHs for guilds that already HAVE their Sigils and a separate one for the ones that don't. This way the good guilds would just fight for Sigil-Hoarding and the un-ranked guilds/groups or whatever would fight among themselves to get a GH.

May 27, 2005, 07:47 AM // 07:47

oh god...

Lim-Dul · May 27, 2005, 07:51 AM // 07:51

Yeah, Blackace - I know your "Ruler of the Universe" attitude.

And yes, Kunt0r, the holding of the HoH by the very best guilds is for me a bit of a HoH-camping. You see - the only groups and/or guilds who could beat them are other good groups and/or guilds which already have their Sigils and stuff. So in fact it's almost IMPOSSIBLE to win in the HoH for any new guild. Pretty much the only way to do this is buying a Sigil ergo: doing the bidding of the high-ranked players... -.-

P.S. It's funny that almost all elitist-attitude-biased-comments SEEM to come from different people, but in fact are posted by different members of the "Idiot Savants" guild - is this elitist-attitude a general tendency of your guild? Maybe a guild-policy?

Fantras · May 27, 2005, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Lim. What does having a Sigil do to increase your effectiveness in PvP? I am curious.